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19.09.2007, 12:26
Hi Racer, Fans und Teckies,

irgendwie juckt es mich gewaltig in den Fingern *äähm Fußgas und ich
überlege die ganze Zeit wie wäre es mal mit Methanol im Tank.

Was muß ich beim gebraucht von Methanol beachten.
Primär geht es mir um Dinge wie:
In welchem Zyklus muß ich das Motoröl wechseln?
Was muß ich nach Veranstaltungsende tun?
Tank und Leitungen leeren? etc....

Zündung, Spritpumpe, Filter und weiter technische Voraussetzungen können wir auslassen.
Die sind klar :deal:

Wer von den Alki's könnte mir hierzu brauchbare Tipps geben?

Danke schon mal im voraus :danke: :danke: :danke:

Methanol Merlin & Team :grins:

PS Es geht hier nicht um den "E" Sprit, also E85 wie Ove oder so!!!!

Bernhard Goldbach
19.09.2007, 13:08
Alkohol ist meiner Meinung nach keine wirkliche Alternative.
Kosten sind im Verhältnis zur Mehrleistung ( max. 10% bei einem Sauger bis 14:1 c.r. ) viel zu hoch. Einziger wirklicher Pluspunkt ist die Kühlung, weshalb in USA sehr viele Bracket Racer mit Alkohol fahren. Ist bei den dortigen Feldergrößen mit buy back auch verständlich.

Wenn Hubraum und Nockenwelle nicht durchs Reglement begrenzt sind, gibt´s nur einen Weg: Pump Gas !
Ran an die olle SHELL-Tanke und ab dafür.

Sorry, leider keine wirkliche Antwort auf deine Frage, nur :meinung:

19.09.2007, 13:17
Hi Bernhard,:wink:

Danke Du weißt das ich Dich, deine Meinung und Erfahrungen sehr schätze. :danke: :danke: :danke:

Meine Frage hat aber einen tiefergreifenden Hintergrund.
Könnte da ein Projekt starten, wobei allerdings das gesamte Aggregat auf Alkohol abgestimmt und aufgebaut ist.:conf:

Na wenn alle Stricke reißen, gibt es eben wieder gutes C14+ und gut:rave:

Gruß Merlin :P

tony morris
28.09.2007, 15:31
Hi merlin, there are pro's and con's to the use of Methanol.

Motor oil
First you are going to have to use a normal oil, no synthetic oil will work with Methanol. If you race with injection then you are going to have to change the oil more, when I ran my Model T in Germany we would change the oil around every ten runs but you could go maybe twenty runs if it not to rich. I run 50W in the model T and 20W50 oil in my present dragster which has a 1250 Holley and is set up to run Methanol.

There are many company's offering Methanol carb's in the US but they all run diifferent, some are set up very rich on idle and you have to change the oil about every twenty runs, I change the oil somewhere between 40 to 50 runs. If the engine idle's very rich then you end up washing the piston rings and they wear out in no time.

Carb's or injection
Injection is always faster that a carb, if you go with a carb then there are a few thing to pay attention to. First the floats if you have brass one's make sure there ok if the car back fires thought the carb as they can be crushed easy. If you have the black floats then it is a good idear to drain the Methanol out of the carb after the race. We race almost ever week so I don't do this so every six month I put new float in the carb, the float get around 3grams heavy in this time and you will start losing ET and ilde rich. With injection you have to drain everything and spray oil in the pump and so on.

You will pick up around .2 in ET when changing from gas to Methanol with a carb with a big block with around 12.5:1 comp, if the engine has more comp then a little less ET and less comp .3 is possible. The BLP dragster has a 565ci and 15.5:1 comp, it runs 7.60's in the heat.

Fuel Pump
If you have a 10 second car and have 1.30 60ft or slower then you can get away with a electric pump, but if you can try to use a mechanical fuel pumps as you will run faster with one on a carb. The electic pump can not deliver enough fuel after the 1/8 so it runs to lean towards the finish line.

I hope this helps if you do not understand I'm sure Andrea or maybe someone else will translate Tony

28.09.2007, 16:31
Dear Tony,

many many thx for the info's and very detailed describtions. :deal:
:danke: :danke: :danke:
I do understand every single word, cause I've been trained by Eastender's :grins:
Notsch Notch wing wing say no more.. Nod I mean Arry*rofl
Ok back to topic enough of this nonsense and british humor :thumb:

It will be a car with a carb and mechanical fuel pump, so we eliminate
the lean running engine.
The non-synthetic oil is a very usefull hint. Thx.
The plan is to start a interval of 5 runs or so, it depends on the look of the oil.
I thing we will take the valve-cover off abd see in what condition it is.
If it start to moist that's it than.
The carb will be one from the US that has been specific made for alcohol, however we will check the hole beast for internals.

Nevertheless, I will keep a good memory of all detailed infos about the drainning. As you know the situation over here, we are that unfortunate and can't run every weekend.
You live in dragster heaven over there :meinung:

I will keep you posted on the progress and hopefully we have the homepage set up and you can follow our progress via that source as well.

Kind regards from the OLD world and keep in touch

Merlin :walker:

tony morris
28.09.2007, 17:30
Thanks for the kind words Merlin, you may want to think about running a Vac pump this will help pull some of the water etc out of the engine, plus it should help with oil leaks and pick up some more ET.

Now it time for me to make a run, we are in Atlanta running this weekend at a Divisional event. C YA Tony

Patrick Kaiser
28.09.2007, 19:16
Hi mit dem Thema Methanol befasse ich mich auch schon eine Weile und werde es nächstes Jahr wohl auch einsetzen.Jetzt gibt es ja immer wieder verschiedene Meinungen welche Benzinpumpe eingesetzt werden sollte. Tony schrieb hier man solle unbedingt eine mechanische Pumpe fahren, um einen lean out zu vermeiden. Bei einer Einspritzanlage denke ich auch das eine Mechanische von Nöten ist aber bei einem Vergaser sollte doch eine gute 500
gallonen Pumpe ausreichen oder habe ich da einen Knopf in meiner Rechnung?? ?(

tony morris
28.09.2007, 20:06
This is from another post on dragracing.de that I posted on this question, so I copyed and pasted it.

It is not recommended to use electric fuel pump with Alcohol carburetors.

First the Alcohol will attack the rubber inside the pump.

Second all Alcohol carburetors use titanium needles in the needle and seats.

If you try and set the electric fuel pump at the normal 9 psi the needle and seat will not hold that pressure at idle, after 3 1/2 psi the needle will start leaking. Then it will start dumping fuel passed the boosters and make it in possible to make the car idle good.

Also as you run the car up the track with Alcohol, a electric fuel pump will not keep up with the fuel demand.

A electric fuel pump can be used on a motor with less than around 650ps on Alcohol, not the 1000ps you would like to run.

So you need to use a mechanical fuel pump, this will alow you to have the low pressure at idle 3psi, and then 10 - 11psi at the finish line.

Here is the link to the other post http://dragracing.de/thread.php?threadid=4123&hilight=fuel+pump

I hope this helps Tony

Patrick Kaiser
28.09.2007, 20:42
Hi Tony thanks for your informative answer!!! Wich pump do you prefer a enderle on the camshaft or a belt driven pump?

Ove Kröger
28.09.2007, 22:05
warum fahrt ihr nicht ethanol!!??????????

E85 gibts an der tanke und kostet 98 cent der liter

grosse unterschiede im verbrennungsverhalten gibt es zu methanol nicht
ohio crankshaft hat das mal getestet

ich bin sehr zufrieden damit und habe in der letzten saison keine nachteile bemerkt
ausserdem ist das ethanol zu 85% auf pflanzlicher basis und nicht so agressiv wie methanol
14.1 verdichtet , der motor auch für andere kraftstoffe geeignet.
einzig der vergaser ist auf e85 abgestimmt


28.09.2007, 22:15
Good Luck for this weekend in Altlanta Tony.

It seens to become a very interessting discussion :danke:


Merlin :walker:

tony morris
28.09.2007, 23:28
I know that in Germany that you can buy E85 at the gas station, and it must be good to sell to the pubic. Over here we have tested E85 at BLP Products where I work on the dyno, I have also build two carb for racers at BLP. One was a 1050 and then a 850 and they were for drag racers. The big problem is you don't always get the same E85, there still is not a good soure for us to buy good quality E85.

This weekend I am racing at Atlanta and I have not seen one car here with E85 and I'm always looking. I think in time in might catch on but for now no body will even thing about it.

When I did the 850 a few month ago it was a brand new one, the owner had sent in his old one to see if we could use it, let me tell you that if you don't clean the carb out after every race it won't last long because we could use it.

The set up for E85 is between gas and Alcohol, when you swich to Alcohol you pick up torque and it carrys on thought the fuel curve, so it doe's not fall off in the upper rpm, with E85 you get more torque that gas but lose it in the upper rpm as it is not happy at 7000rpm.


tony morris
28.09.2007, 23:30
@Patrick Kaiser

Both pumps work very good I have tryed both, I use a belt driven BLP 500 pump and because I work there they want to see me use there's.


28.09.2007, 23:40
Hi Ho Ove,

habe auch schon an E85 gedacht. Bitte vergesse aber nicht das dein BB nicht in die von Tony angesprochenen Drehzahlen kommt.
Wenn Du alledings einen bereits abgestimmten Motor für Methanol bekommst wird das mit der Einstellerei für E85 eine lange Testphase.
Vermute ich mal.
Sicher liegt E85 preislich bei der Hälfte von Methanol, aber das ist eigentlich nicht so mein primäres Augenmerkt.

Na mal sehen wo uns die Winterpause und Diskussion noch hinbringt.

Gruß Merlin :walker:

Tom Winter
28.09.2007, 23:57
Methanol ist bei gleichbleibender Qualität
wesentlich günstiger .

29.09.2007, 18:59
Original von Tom Winter
Methanol ist bei gleichbleibender Qualität
wesentlich günstiger .

Hi Tom,

Danke für die Info.
Werde mal sehen was Kenneth von Sonoco so dazu sagen wird. *grinz
Es ist und bleib aber spannend.

CU at Track
Gruß Merlin :walker:

30.09.2007, 21:13
So jezt ich mal. Sind acht Jahre Methanolvergaser gefahren auf nem 9Liter-Hemi. Mechanische Pumpe ist kein muß auch wenn Tony das so sieht. Hatten zwei Holley Volumax Pumpen und die waren immer ausreichend. Wir fahren 50er Einbereichsöl, aber immer vorgeheizt. Ölwechsel ist abhänig von der Luftfeuchtigkeit, haben teilweise nach einem Lauf gewechselt, oder das ganze Wochenende nicht. Methanol raus und WD40 rein nach jedem Wochenende kann ich nur empfehlen. Abfallende Verschraubungen, weil zerfressen, gibts so nicht.

Patrick Kaiser
30.09.2007, 22:53
Hi ich habe mich die letzten Tage mit dem Thema beschäftigt. Es scheint wirklich ein Problem mit Krst Druck zu sein. Im LL 4 Psi und im Ziel 10- 11 PSI das die Menge ausreicht. So wie ich es ausgerechnet habe braucht man ca das Doppelte an Methanol. Was ist aber,wenn ich ein Bypassventil an den Vergaser montiere welches im LL den Krst Druck senkt ( Rücklauf zum Tank öffnet) und sobald die Drosselklappe über 30% rausgeht den Rücklauf verschließt und 11 psi anliegen. Das müsste doch auch funktionieren oder ?( Ich weiß auch nicht ich glaube ich müsste mich erst noch mit den mechanischen Pumpen anfreuden was ich eigentlich nicht möchte vorallem weil ich eine neue Pro Star 500 Pumpe hier liegen habe.

tony morris
30.09.2007, 23:01
Below is the answer I gave Franky last time, but when you think about it you are suppying 4cyl (4.5l) with one fuel pump right.

On a other note Paul Maston's Monza won in S/G today at Santa Pod and they were also running the car in S/C (8.90) a few month ago this was not possible with the old fuel pump they were running.

Answer from http://dragracing.de/thread.php?threadid=4123&hilight=fuel+pump

Sure you can make it work but you would run faster with a mechanical fuel pump than with two electric fuel pumps. You need around 10psi to 11psi and some time more at the finsh line with a Alcohol carburetors.
With the electric fuel pump you could never adjust it that high or it will floor into the motor at idle.

I have spoken to many racer over here about this, as we sell pumps at BLP and just about all the top racer now use are pumps.

We sold a Alcohol carb to Paul Marson drag racing school in England last year, they also tryed to run with a electric fuel pump but they jusy couldn't get the car to repeat run after run, I keep telling him to put the pump on that he had already purchased from BLP at the same time as the carb.

Now he has put the mechanical pump on the car for this weekends race. This weekend they are trying to race in England at the Summernationals, Paul called me today and said man I wish we had put that pump on early it pulls much better at the top end now running a 9.04@ 148.00 in his Chevy Monza which has a 488ci in it and a 1050 BLP carb.

I have been running with Alcohol on my lastest car since 2003, all I do is change the floats every six month as they get heavy with Alcohol over time and the performance starts to drop off. As we race twice a month we don't drain it unless the car is going to sit for more that a month.

Fränky I know you can make it work, but trust me if you are running two carbs on Alcohol on a 543ci and have one pump per carb, then don't you think you would have less hassle with just one pump suppling both carb. This would then give you peace of mind that you are getting plent of fuel and getting the full PS out of your race car.

Do not worry about your English I to have my problems with spelling.


11.10.2007, 17:40
Hi Tony and Fans,

a very BIG THX for all the input and high value infos.
I will go with the flow, means mechanical pump.
I will asked the pre-owner more questions on what and how to do than a swiss cheese has holes :eek2:
I will leave the car as it is set up and provide myself and the team with a check list of methanol rules to follow. :grins:
Even if we have to work a little more, because of full drain and cleaning the lines and pump.
It sounds not to critical to do that and the benefit we will get is more than appropriate.

If there is anything during the season2008 I will come back to you, be sure of that :grins:

Merlin :walker: